Let's start with the outcome, not much damage on the cars, bent wheels and rubbed rear fenders. For CG though, the PCA came down hard: he was deemed 100% at fault, forbidden to race for the rest of the week end (this was the first of a series of races in the context of the annual 48 Hours at Sebring event, week end down the drain) and given a 13/13 probation, meaning if he's involved in another incident in the next 13 months he will be barred from racing for 13 months.
The reason given for the harsh penalty was that an overtaking driver is 100% responsible for making a pass which does not result in contact, this apparently true even if the other car turns in on him!
In this specific case, CG out-brakes the green car and cannot move much further to the left since he has the the white and red car on the inside. He was door to door with the green car when contact occurred, rear right to rear left.
Sebring's turn 1 is perhaps the widest turn in all of motorsport, how CG could have been found 100% at fault in this situation is beyond me, a racing incident at the very least. I was under the impression that PCA racing, while designed to look after doctor cars, was still racing, not something requiring point bys ...
What are your thoughts?
Here is the incident from onboard another car, right behind at the start.
Looks more like the outside driver turned in without checking his mirrors first. Odd - because when the flag dropped the driver of the green car seemed to be aware of where CG was...
ReplyDeleteGreen car is FULLY at fault here, he turned down on the camera car. NO EXCUSE here as the camera car was far enough along side that even with a full containment seat the green car should have had no problem seeing him. SOunds like BS racing politics to me.
ReplyDeleteBogus....I think there are a lot of politics involved here. Personally we all know CG to be a great guy so to state the obvious, PCA must be run by a bunch of douchebags....enough said.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I agree this sucks. Second, I acknowledge that the green car had the most amount of additional room I have ever seen on a racetrack. Third however, if the rules are that the passing car takes 100% of the responsibility for ensuring a collision-free pass (which makes racing "affordable") that dive to the inside, with the white car in the mix for maximum unpredictability, was risky. The proof of course is that the collision happened, regardless of great driving on CG's part.
ReplyDeleteIf the driver of the green car had been more aware, he could have saved everyone a lot of trouble, but the rules clearly don't require him to do so unfortunately. In order to keep if affordable, the series understandably is not geared towards 10/10ths driving.
In any case, the end result is a tough one. Sorry guys.
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DeleteThe problem with always putting the blame on the passing car is that it allows the car being passed to intenionally or otherwise swerve into the passing car as he gets his nose next to them in hopes that the passing car will chicken out and back out of it. That is not racing.
Deletewhile not from PCA, this little gem should apply to all forms of wheel to wheel racing.
Rules of the Road
"If you demand or need the entire road to race... you are not a real race driver. If you insist on disregarding the other guy, moving over knowing that contact is likely, you are also not a race driver."
Eh.... he really forced it in there. First corner heroics imo. However, given that it was pretty much a racing incident I think the penalties were too harsh.
ReplyDeleteRacing incident, and if that's the way they hand down penalties I'd find another series to race for. That's entirely too harsh for causing what amounts to a spin. I'd just not continue to race for a series run by people that stupid.
ReplyDeleteIMHO CG's move appears hardly aggressive and the driver of the green Porsche appears completely unaware. The rule apparently does not leave much room for a fair and accurate apportioning of blame. I understand the desire to keep costs in check, but costs and incidents come with the territory, and a penalty such as expulsion is contradictory to that intent . . .
ReplyDeleteThing is, I read the PCA racing regulations and I cannot find a mention of the "passing car is 100% responsible" rule. did I miss it?
Deletehttp://www.pca.org/Activities/ClubRacing/RulesLicensingForms.aspx<
DeleteLOL you got me, I was taking your word for it on there being a rule! Thanks for posting the link will be an interesting read
DeleteGeez, I thought green WAS taking the outside line. He seemed to be setting up for it by jinking to the right at the start. Like you said - T1 has all the room in the world to stay wide. Anyone would have made the move CG did. If contact was RR>LR then it's 50:50 fault and both drivers should get a yellow card. If contact was right-door>LR then he wasn't far enough up on green to be completely out of fault. I.E. - he shouldn't have been there. Regardless, it was not a blatant punt so the ban for the rest of the weekend seems overly harsh and knee-jerk.
ReplyDeleteSince you asked: it was a little forced for amateur night club racing. I suspect the rules were set up to prevent shunts like that. Having said that, green was not fully aware of his surroundings and should have moved right. Lesson for both drivers. I DO think the penalty was not commensurate withe the offense as it appears the contact was at the rear of CGs car, thus indicating that green did not move over
ReplyDeleteWow. Who cares?
ReplyDeleteThat's why I just close my eyes while going through turn 1.
ReplyDeleteFor a moment it looked like everything would be OK. Mostly racing incident, but certainly avoidable. I feel CG should have re-evaluated the moment he rode the rev limiter and lost momentum on the front straight. Green-and-whitey would have been left out in the cold for the second braking zone...
ReplyDeleteYou don't need mirrors to race in PCA, just turn down on anyone trying to pass you and they'll get a 13/13, or drive off trying to avoid one. It's the rule PCA thinks prevents incidents, but in really most use it as a chop and rewards unaware driving.
ReplyDeleteThere are rules for a reason... other wise it would be called destruction derby not road racing.
ReplyDeleteIt's CG's responsibility to make the pass without incident.
The unaware driver is the guy that thinks he can pull it off in turn 1 of a spec field at night on cold tires, diving between two competitors at first turn of first lap... well you couldn't, sorry CG, love what you do, but CG's fault.
You didn't out-braked green, you barely got side to side, in between two cars.
It wasn't green's responsibility to let you pass, it was yours to pass cleanly, and you couldn't do that in these conditions.
Bad Judgment.
Penalty is indeed harsh, but clearly CG is serving as example of severity towards first turn heros. That's also racing.
Now brush up and get back at it !
CG can reply with his own opinion, mine would be that in a spec race your biggest gains will be on the first lap. And I don't see the point of racing if you don't go for it. But then again this is more like simulated racing, In any case, from the second video you see the green car blocking right then blocking left. Contact between the rear wheels nails down their relative position.
DeleteGot to agree with this. CG looked to be overly aggressive going into the first turn. If this is truly amateurish racing then some caution needs to be taken by everyone. Would be interested to see what was talked about in the driver's meeting before the race. The penalty seems overly harsh but they may have covered any first turn heroics would deem sharper penalties.
DeleteHe should be able to appeal as you stated that he can give his opinion. Hopefully with the appeal the penalties will be reduced and the governing body will use this more as a teaching aide. If not then there's clearly something else up here and it's time to find a new racing league.
If that exact scenario were with F1 cars I could definitely see CG being at fault in that situation too. It was an "unnecessary" risk.
equally, the green car could have used some of the 100 feet of pavement to his right. All he needed was 12 inches.
DeleteI think in this instance more information is required. What's the resume of the green driver? Has he been racing very long or his he a rookie? He may not have the skill to make a decision on the fly like that to escape to the right.
DeleteI think if there weren't already a car on the inside there then they could have seen the Green car as being at fault. Since there was a car there and CG was trying to thread the needle I can understand why they sided the way they did. What if this were any other track besides Sebring? Most turn 1s are nowhere near as wide as that.
On a side note that's a great looking car. Would love to have a model of it on the shelf.
Agree on going for it and agree on spec racing making substantial progress difficult later in the race once everybody is at cruise speed.
DeleteHowever there is a car on the left too, green on the right, pretty clear its going to be one tight squeeze. CG should be aware of the presence of that left car, and also know that green might not see it, which is probably why green holds it's line tight, thinking CG is going at it bold.
It's CG's call to go bold and try to squeeze in, and also CG's call to make that choice knowing he will be responsible if things go bang. Went for it, didn't go well, too bad, was fast and chaotic, I'm sure next time it will go better.
Green "could" have used more space, but you have to put yourself in his position.
In the position green is he sees CG being aggressive on the brakes but probably not the left car that keeps CG against him, this is exactly why CG making the pass is responsible for making it cleanly, and why in this situation wasn't the best thing to do.
In this particular instance green is doing exactly what CG is, and what you mentioned earlier, he his going for it.
I do agree harsh penalty, however, gotta say it is an aggressive move on first turn.
Again love AXIS and what CG does, racer myself and been there, it's tough, don't let that take your spirits down !
It's simple, the green car is being driven by someone who is friends with the steward or a famous pro racer that the PCA wants to brown nose. It is sad that it happens.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the "100% responsible" excuse, we all know that is not true in racing (the Mr Magoos are often found to be at fault). It's just a BS phrase that stewards use when they can't actually make a logical case for their decision.
It's green car fault for me.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many commenters have actually driven through T1 in this kind of traffic at night... It's nuts, and the aggression that CG showed going down the front straight rendered this kind of incident inevitable. I'm just glad the incident didn't ensnare the slower, older cars behind.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 02/19/2013 at 12:15am has it right - CG hadn't actually outbraked the green car, he had just barely eked by him. It seems like many here would have expected green to go WAY to the outside to make room for CG and the merry slower cars to pass also. At least as I've been taught in SB racing schools at Sebring, if you're in the process of being rightfully passed, hold the line. Hold the line does not mean "go straight toward the planes."
This is a classic example of why one shouldn't do club racing. Too many chump rookie wannabes, therefore every incident is a racing incident.
ReplyDeleteHe took a risk and didnt worked thats it...
ReplyDelete...And therefore we have our opening video submissions for the 'FIRST LAP NUTCASE' award for 2013.
ReplyDeletePETE
ReplyDeleteRACING INCIDENT, BUT HAPPENED BECAUSE THE GREEN CAR UNAWARE. EVERYONE KNOWS THE RISKS OF RACING THE FIRST TIME ON THE TRACK. RACING IS ABOUT SKILL AND TAKING RISKS. THAT WAS A VERY LOW RISK MOVE, SPEC CARS, THAT MOVE IS A MUST. FIRST CORNER IN MY SPEC E30 IM MAKING THAT MOVE 100% OF THE TIME.
ADD ALL THAT THE THE FACT THAT CG WAS AHEAD OF THE GREEN CAR BEFORE CONTACT, MAKES THE GREEN CAR DRIVER "HERB" 100% AT FAULT.
Tough case, but to me the driver of the green car holds his line and acts consistently. CG on the other hand makes an unpredictable two-stage move: brake - then sneak up. You can tell by watching the accelerometer.
ReplyDeleteStill, I think the penalty is way too harsh.
I feel the green car is at fault here. Due to the way the green car spun 'first' and more dramatic, the PCA will see it that CG was the one causing the contact/accident.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts......I think cg got caught out by the green car breaking earlier than he expected and the resulting dive to the inside was in avoidance. I back that up with the fact that the car on the inside came from even further back to get down the inside of both cars.
ReplyDeleteHowever once cg was there the resulting contact has two possibilities.....cg was now trying to avoid contact with the car to the inside and as a result ran a touch wide into the green car.
Or the green car turned down on cg because he expected cg to be heading towards apex. The driver of the green car could likely not see the car on the inside due to cgs car placement.
In either case, this is a 3 into 2 won't go situation. I cant apportion any more than 50 percent blame to either driver.
The above comment is the correct and sensible reading of the incident. The extreme punishment was unwarranted.
DeleteThanks for all the supportive comments from most of you. More than placing or distributing % blame on each driver, my biggest complain is the PCA Stewards rationale to interpret the incident that defies the Law of Common Sense.
ReplyDeleteThese are facts that need to be considered:
- Sebring Turn1 is probably the widest turn in motorsports worldwide. It is very common and normal racing conditions to go 3,4,5 or up to 6 wide there:
http://openpaddock.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/USF2000-Sebring2012-Race1-Start-404x300.jpg
- We were not going anywhere close to the limit of the cars. Just look at hands on the steering wheel where no corrections are required. Turn speed was very conservative, and the supposed "dive" was just a consequence of overbraking by the car in front of the green car
- I've raced the green car many times before in IMSA and had made many passes with no consequences. Here, he just happened to remain 5mm too close. We didnt even touched the bodywork, just the wheels.
- Racing at night, once you are used to it, is the same as in daylight, and you can go as fast as in sunlight. Only extra risk at night is your visibility is limited to 500ft, but specially on race start you can clearly se everything that's going around you, and even cars on your side and behind are MORE noticeable due to the effect of the lights which doesn't happen during the day (more blind spots in daylight)
Hi cg,
DeleteI made the 3 into 2 comment above and it wasnt meant to be negative at all. It was just my read on the incident.
However, my read on it comes from having been in similar situations, albeit not at Sebring. And with that said, I've had near identical end results.
That said, the punishment did not fit the crime (if it can even be considered a crime). You got screwed and it likely has to do with politics as pca can get that way from my understanding.
100% totally a "racing incident" in my book. Nobody deserved a penalty at all. It falls under the "$#!+ happens" category.
Carry on........
The rules need revision given the on board cameras everywhere. The video proof is almost iron clad in this case. PCA has always been a meat grinder - they are trying to field too many cars every weekend, so the classes are packed, and no one wants to damage their car (it's not DTM lol).
ReplyDeletethe driver in green had space to the right, its him who fought to stay in, and in my opinion was the aggressor, as the car on his left was past and tried to keep in line.. i don't see why there is such bad consequence, the rules should be adjusted to clubs and races..
ReplyDeleteOk, so it's an endurance race and someone with half a brain and the driving level CG supposedly has. Should have the forethought to not drive like it's the last lap battle between 1st and 2nd in points for an F1 championship.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, it's the PCA.. you should know a penalty like that is coming with that type of incident.
I call shame on Axis for even bitching about it.
Actually, it was a sprint race
DeleteRacing incident. It happens. Just a call to the stewards for a chat about how to prevent it next time. No sanctions.
ReplyDeleteThat'd be sensible.
To the people arguing the completness of the pass: do you expect any car not being able to be 100% in front of another before the end of a straight, to concede position? That's simply not racing. CG was ahead, and had the line. Furthermore, if he had conceded, a bunch of cars in the back would've slammed into him.
ReplyDeleteBy enforcing this rule PCA is simply running a glorified trackday.
Also, has anyone considered that "white-red" pulled exactly the same move on the inside on CG? CG had the common sense to save his a**, and while doing that, white-green turned into him ending his weekend.