We looked up two things, an FIA track map with the marshaling positions indicated and a clearer copy of the onboard which you can see frame by frame from turn 3 on.
I rocked the few frames where the marshal on the left side of the track is visible waving what, though not clear, we have to assume is a green flag. Vettel makes the pass after that green flag station so it's all legal.
Where did the confusion arise? Well, the lights on Vettel's dashboard are still on at that point and stay on until he passes the next light station. The dashboard lights are perhaps tied to transponders at light station as opposed to marshal positions (they don't always match) but flags still take precedence.
Below, laps 3 and part of 4, where Vettel passes the Marussia (notice the lack of top speed on the RB8 at this point) and then the Toro Rosso, Notice also that on lap 3 the flag station on the right at the exit of T3 is green while on lap 4 it becomes yellow and keep in mind the camera does not see as well as the human eye would in those conditions.
Final verdict? It was in fact heads up racing by Vettel, like a Champion would drive.
Shame. Me daría vergüenza ganar con trampas como Vettel.
ReplyDeleteYou are assuming that the alleged spot that is left, is a green flag,when i cant see nothing on here,only i see is yellow flags on steering and illuminated panels and vettel overpassing vergne.Such a unprofessinal and usefull article,keep it real yo.
ReplyDeleteIf that, your eyes have a seriously injured. I recommend you go to optical clinic.
DeleteFirst video 0:35 ~ 0:39, on a left side. before johnnie walker black ads. you can see the green post which up on the 2M high. and you can see the marshal waving a green flag. If you can't you should take my advice.
You have a tremendous imagination fella,really you are seeing a green flag on that spot?¿ REALLY? you have X-ray vision,what are you doing here,go to take Charlie Whiting`s job.
Deletecome on mate!! you can see it top of the image which slow motioned!!!!
DeleteWhat was that do you thinking??
It's definitely not A Yellow color.
IMO, it was same color as that Petrobras Post ads color. It's green though.
Mate, if FIA give me that kinda jobs, I'd love to do that :)
Merry Christmas!
Frigodedo, please review the FIA map and see the color of that marshall......
ReplyDeleteLlouronso, learn to read a map leyend. In the FIA map all marshalls are marked green.
ReplyDeleteI can't view a green flag there in this video.
Pero en el minuto 1:47 del vídeo adelanta con bandera amarilla, mira display de volante luces amarillas. Adelantamiento ILEGAL
DeleteAngel, disculpen mi gramática horrible ... La bandera verde que se agitaba en la posición entre las curvas 3 y 4 tiene prioridad sobre la luz. La pista libre para pasar de ese punto en adelante
DeleteTu lo has dicho: pista libre para pasar desde ese punto en adelante. POr eso NO puede adelantar ANTES de ese punto, y lo hace. SANCIÓN! PENALTY!
DeleteNo, he does NOT complete the pass before the flag station on the left.
DeleteSecond 37 of the first video, marshall waving a dark (green) flag from the marshall post on the left side, same post marked in the map at the beggining of the straight, the overtaking is totally legal
ReplyDeletePero en el minuto 1:47 del vídeo adelanta con bandera amarilla, mira display de volante luces amarillas. Adelantamiento ILEGAL
DeleteYou are so funny :)
DeleteCheers Axis for investigating the video and the regulations, good job.
ReplyDeleteOk, it does look like there is something (but let's call it someone, since whatever or whoever it is, it's definitely waving some kind of flag)in the marshall post from around second 37 (even before, though the quality is not good enough to clearly spot it)up to second 56. After that, though, in second 57, the "marshall" suddenly disappears and there is no shadow at all anymore. So, OK, quality is not good, it was raining, the image is blurry, whatever.
ReplyDeleteThe most important thing comes right after that. It's a really tiny detail, but it's crucial, in my opinion. In second 59 you can see a shadow again where the "marshall" was standing a few seconds before, but if you pay close attention, you will notice the shadow you see is that of a skyscraper on the background (there are two skyscrapers all along, this is the one on the right), and that there is, in fact, no one in the marshall post.
So, unless this "marshall" has the ability to appear and disappear when it suits him, I'd say this is not legitimate footage.
This is brilliant! What else have you got?
DeleteWell we know there is a marshal there both because it's on the map because we saw him at his post on the previous lap waving a green flag.
DeleteSo he is either:
a) Waving green to indicate the caution applying to the previous section of track is over.
b) Waving yellow to indicate the caution applying to the previous section of track is on-going.
c) Not waving anything.
When you set the quality on the original video floating around to 780p (youtube defaults to 480p) you can definitely see the movement of the flag at that position it's not the shadow of a building (hilarious effort though).
Nadie habla entre el segundo 37 y el segundo 59, en ese momento es legal. adelanta con luz verde. Pero mirad en el minuto 1:47, luz y banderas AMARILLO, pero es el tramposo de Vettel
DeleteWhen does the Oliver Stone version of this come out?
ReplyDeleteIn my personal opinion and after going back and watching the race again, from what I could tell on my television was that it was a green flag that the marshal was waving just after turn 3 on the left side. I agree with Axis that it was very heads up driving by Vettel to notice the flags on the track and I highly doubt him or his team would make a stupid bone head mistake like that on such an important race.
ReplyDeleteeven if it was an illegal overtake, i don't want any more of the age old bullshit of outcomes being changed in crappy back room decisions. Fine, take grosjean in to one of those rooms and beat him with a phone book, but don't be taking away the result 500 million people got to see happen. That is the old FIA, and people were really sick of it.
ReplyDeleteYou think they would hand over the world cup a week later if the video review shows a player was offside, or a ball was out of bounds but not called? some bad calls are made in sport, and some players maybe get away with things in the heat of the moment. Not that I think that happened in this case, but it's life, live with it.
Thanks axis, for trying to settle the arguement, just be careful not to feed the trolls!
For the record, I was for Alonso. I think Vettel has nine lives, and never in the history of the sport has a man had the car to come from the back of the grid basically no real disadvantage as he did in Abu Dhabi and here.
Time to move on . . . but given how wide these on board cameras are, given that the alleged flag is brought out just as Vettel reaches the post, and given (at least by his helmet) he does not appear to be looking straight ahead but instead at his right rear view mirror, I think it's far from certain that he even saw it. Heads up driving? Maybe. I'd probably opt for "fortune favors the brave"
ReplyDeleteFair enough. Part of the burden on the marshals is that of proof: Do they have clear evidence of some violation of the sporting regs or intentional disregard for their spirit? In this case, with what we've seen - which is by no means the complete picture of data available to the stewards and Mr. Whiting - there is doubt, although I still contend that Vettel was taking huge chances in his attempt at retaking positions lost in that spin.
ReplyDeleteAnd it still doesn't mean his actions in chopping off everyone at T4 were sporting, either. Whereas Grosjean took out his competitors from the rear in Spa, Vettel took them out from in front, but I'd say he was quite optimistic to believe he could get away with that move. He's very lucky he finished this race at all. You'll note that other drivers approaching that turn with cars around them took lines to reflect those other cars presence, while Vettle assumed the normal racing line despite, for example, Kimi shooting off to his other side. Those mirrors are funtional, and directly in his line of sight as he spots the apex...
closed indeed, see the pictures shown here http://www.derapate.it/articolo/gp-brasile-f1-2012-il-sorpasso-di-vettel-sotto-bandiere-gialle-e-regolare/43357/
ReplyDeleteciao,
Simone
Pero en el minuto 1:47 del vídeo adelanta con bandera amarilla, mira display de volante luces amarillas. Adelantamiento ILEGAL
ReplyDeletecomo lo explica el articulo. LOS PUESTOS DE BANDEREROS ANULAN LAS LUCES DEL TABLERO, es decir: si un banderero ondea la verde, puedes adelantar AUN CUANDO EN EL TABLERO SIGAN PRENDIDAS LAS AMARILLAS..
DeleteThis isn't the real video!! in this Vettel overtakes a Marussia's car, not the Vergne's car. This is a joke!!!
ReplyDeleteSay what? LOL. Sorry, but the video on top is a frame by frame of the pass on lap 4. The bottom clip is lap 3 and lap 4
DeleteVettel 2012 winner...very similar as Hamilton in 2007
ReplyDeleteYeah, hardly fought with Michael.
DeleteSo your definitive "case closed...it's all legal" verdict is based on the assumption that "the marshal on the left side of the track is visible waving what, though not clear, we have to assume is a green flag."
ReplyDeleteLOL.
Quality investigative work here.
Actually, I can't see the color of the flag in this video ... I'm a fan of Alonso (forza Ferrari), and I think he deserved to win, but I also think that after giving Vettel as winner, it is not correct get the prize won out that way... Well, we'll just wait and see which will be the final decision, but honestly, I wouldn't like win like this
ReplyDeletethere is no doubt about the colour of the flag even if its not visible. if the flag that we are debating about was yellow, then the light ahead would have been yellow. Since the light ahead clearly is green, that is the same colour that is being waved in marshall's post.
ReplyDeleteWell, we can't say for sure it's green, but we can say for sure that it isn't that bright yellow. And so what else could it be?
ReplyDeleteBy the way, there's an italian article here showing an image from lap 3 where that marshal was already waving a green flag.
http://www.derapate.it/articolo/gp-brasile-f1-2012-il-sorpasso-di-vettel-sotto-bandiere-gialle-e-regolare/43357/
Si I really think that the case is basically closed...
It's clear that the flag being waved is green, and also as Vettel turns onto the straight, there is a green light flashing on the right-hand side, and one at the end of the straight too. It definitely is a legal overtake.
ReplyDeleteFIA confirmed that the flag we see is green, as it seemed for many of us.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644
Monaco 2010.
ReplyDeleteSchumacher penalized, even with green flags weaving...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8b0IQ0bHlg&feature=youtu.be
has it been mentioned that on lap 3 after turn 3 is indeed green, even with light flashing; then on lap 4 when Vettel comes around it is flashing yellow. The dash board lights also show this on lap 3, they go out after the turn 3 flashing green light, but for lap 4 they stay on until turn 4 flashing green. On lap 3 it is clear to see there was also a waving green flag at the marshalls stand after turn 3 lights, so was green green; however on lap 4 turn 3 lights go back to yellow, whilst the marshal is unclear... It appears the FIA have screwed up there, or the stewards, they have actually put the section into yellow from lap 3 to lap 4, I can't imagine they meant to put that section into yellow for just 100 yards from the light to the marshall flag, they wanted the whole straight yellow; still, if the marshal is indeed waving a green flag not much they can do, but you have 2 out of 3 indicators saying yellow, and this has changed from lap 3.
ReplyDeleteI hope I was clear, you can't say that because the marshal was waving a green on lap 3 it then green on lap 4, as the flashing lights on the side of the track have changed on turn 3 since lap 3, so green to yellow on lap 4; and also so have Vettels on board indicators. To me, he did pass under yellow, and the stewards had meant to put the section under yellow, but just maybe, possibly the slow marshal had not realised the section had changed to yellow, but what flag is being waved if any is debatable; as there is only clear footage on lap 3, which doesn't seem applicable to lap 4 as the lights had changed.
ReplyDeleteMillions are millions and red bull have too much of that for the FIA jejeje
ReplyDelete