How Felipe Massa though he could leave the door open that much and have Hamilton NOT hit him we'll never know. It's not like it's the first time Hamilton has tried that exact move. Just in Monaco he did it twice, to Massa at the hairpin and to Maldonado at St.Devote, both resulting in epic fails for the Brit.
The issue here is that Hamilton has decided he is Senna and he saw the movie, and he read the quote about going for the gap every time, blah blah blah. It's obvious Lewis believes people should just move out of the way when he makes any move, thus his surprised whine after the incident.
But he is not Senna, this is a different century and a different Formula 1. That Hamilton believes anyone in the top tier (and some in the second tier) will move aside goes a long way towards explaining why he painted Bob Marley on his helmet. Pass it over Lewis!
Massa's penalty is proof the incessant whining about being "singled out", is working for Hamilton. That and having Johnny Herbert as the "expert" steward in India. That was at best a racing incident, but judge for yourself after the jump.
Other than this incident, nothing really happened at the Indian GP, just a boring procession with the usual results. Big losers have to be Webber and Hamilton and possibly Force India for a rather poor showing in front of the home crowd.
Not sure how you view this as hamilton hitting Massa. As the FIA rules are written this was clearly avoidable contact on Massa's part.
ReplyDeleteHamilton used his KERS and Massa happens to look right while Hamilton goes inside, Hamilton has the inside before the corner, (he did not dive bomb him) Massa proceeds to turn in while hamilton is there.
A case can be made for either of them backing out of it and giving the other one the corner. BUT Massa had the option of running the outside therefore it's avoidable contact.
While Hamilton has become extremely ham-fisted this year, particularly when he is in the proximity of Massa, you must be out of your Tifosian mind if you think this incident was Hamilton's fault. Massa opened the door, checked his mirror, saw Hamilton attempting a low percentage pass, and then chopped Hamilton off. Massa got what he deserved.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between this and Monaco was that Lewis was nearly completely level *BEFORE* either of them turned-in to the left-hander. Ergo: Massa knew he was there, and caused an avoidable accident by not giving him any room. All-in, it should have been classed as a racing incident vs anyone getting a penalty.
ReplyDeleteStuart-R from the UK
AC, I have to disagree this time.
ReplyDeleteI keep watching the video over and over and I think Massa should have left some room. If that means losing position, tough. If he has to run half the car outside the racing line and in the dirt, too bad.
It was an unavoidable incident on his part.
In any case, this is clearly Mr Bean's fault. McLaren should have known better than to let him into the garage.
Massa is a blistering idiot ... Let's hope Ferrari get 2 decent drivers for 2012 ..
ReplyDeleteToo bad Hamilton's reputation proceeds him .. Let's see what McLaren can do when Button is the nr1 driver at the start of the season.
Take a tip from Sniff Petrol - if you have decided that you've always got a problem with a driver for gawd's sake make it funny.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise it just comes across as incessant whining... and nobody likes that right?
AC, screw these hater brits. Hamilton is an idiot, you know the school bully who hits you and then complains about how you tortured him instead!
ReplyDeleteNo wonder Nicole left him, I'll leave it at that :)
I'm not sure how you fanboys can argue Hamilton "had the inside when he hit Massa's rear wheel. Felipe stayed in it longer and took his line. Had massa given up you all would be calling him a chump. Had they switched places you all would be calling for his head.
ReplyDeleteNow Massa was a fool for trusting Ham not to hit him. Racing incident.
I was always taught to make a good move you must have at least your front tire past the driver of the car you are attempting to pass. Hamilton briefly made it to this spot, but braked earlier and ended up hitting Massa in the rear wheel. Honestly I think anytime you get hit in the back, it's the other drivers fault. Hamilton should have backed off, he's too aggressive. Massa should have left him 3/4's of a car on the inside so he could have aborted the move and run him onto the curbing. I doubt Hamilton would have done that, but it could have avoided the wreck.
ReplyDeleteThe problem here is Massa is a better established star. He has a few years left, and Hamilton has a lot of time left. Hamilton's team is not going to allow him to wreck cars every week and continue to get poor results. They want to win championships not have their cars get caught up in BS every week. I'd suggest for Hamms that he back off, be more cerebral and make better moves. If he gets another year or two at Mclaren I'd be surprized, they'll ship his ass off to Lotus in a heartbeat for one of these newer young guys. Jensen is obviously a masterful driver, they don't need Hamilton in this form.
Neither of these two drivers are the truest wheels on the car, if you know what I mean. This is a racing incident. Hamilton had the inside line but Massa braked late (very nicely) and had the corner. Hamilton hitting the rear wheel of Massa is the tell tale sign here...
ReplyDeleteOh come on AC... I love this blog, and you're free to have an opinion, but this is just silly onesided Ferrari fanatism and Hamilton hatred without descent reasoning...
ReplyDeleteWhat's Senna got to do with this anyway? Because it's a non DRS-pass?
It was a valid classic move that could have worked, no divebomb, he just ran alongside on the inside before turn-in. Massa clearly saw him coming and still kept his line, closing the door.
If that ain't a legal way to pass, than there should only be DRS flyby's, and that just ain't racing.
What was Massa thinking? He's just being a stubborn idiot who thinks he's needs to pay something back towards Hamilton.
I think we ain't seen the last of it. They urgently need to get those two together for some talking and handshaking before someone gets hurt. Massa could easily have flipped his car there.
What part of "Hamilton was never alongside enough to make the pass" is not getting through? the only way Hamilton was making that pass was if Massa folded and let him through. If Hamilton thinks that will happen with anyone, from Massa to Maldonado, he's smoking too much herb
ReplyDeleteI am with AC:
ReplyDeleteThe kinds of overtakes that Hamilton keeps attempting to make are very similar to the kinds that M.S. has been so heavily criticized for. Both drivers drive like they *expect* everyone to yield to them and then they are totally arrogant when questioned about what went wrong.
From my side, I deem it a racing incident and nothing more, in my opinion there was no penalty to be issued here, really.
ReplyDeleteBut, if there was a penalty to give, I'm happy that Massa was the one to get the drive through. That's because I'm a bit tired of drivers closing the door abruptly just because they are ahead and then complaining about contacts.
In my opinion, when you're battling, in no case you are allowed to drive as you would if the other wasn't on track. Massa knew exactly where Hamilton was and knew that the brit couldn't just disappear, so he had to leave enough room. for him to avoid contact.
Decisions like this, if they will be repeated, will give us better battles in the future IMHO.
I want to say that posts like this make me want to stop following this blog altogether . I'm all for subjective opinions, but this shit is bordering on hatred.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Hamilton fan, and I agree with Zizzo that this was a racing incident, and nothing more. Yes Hamilton probably should not have tried a pass there, especially on someone hes feuding with, but it's still a racing incident nonetheless.
And, I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic in asking why "he" painted Bob Marley on his helmet, but he was asked to put Bob on his helmet from the Marley family for this race specifically.
I'd love to see the braking traces. Hamilton was along side at one point, then got on the brakes earlier, falling back, at which point Massa turned in.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see if Hamilton braked any "less" than usual, e.g. he wouldn't have made the corner if Massa wasn't there anyway.
You know what happens if a racing driver doesn't go for a gap like the one Massa left open? "Nothing really happens...just a boring procession with the usual results."
ReplyDeleteOut of all the incidents involving Hamilton this year, this one is most blatantly the fault of the opposite driver.
Webber or Button for example, in this exact situation, would have been able to race toe to toe with Hamilton and it would have been exciting, because they race sensibly and safely. Massa was right to shut the door but his reaction time in doing so was unforgivable. Penalty well deserved.
F1 wouldn't be fun without these points of controversy.
Oh cool, so we can get him to paint an Axis logo up there! :)
ReplyDeleteIf you agree with Zizzo you agree with me, it should definitively have been no penalty... Or a penalty for both.
In any case, good thing these two clowns crashed again otherwise there really would have been. Otho g to say about the Indian Gp
It was a race incident. I assume Massa's time in F1 is limited. I feel bad for Rob Smedley. Wish they'd use his talents for Fernando...
ReplyDeleteSadly, I'm not at all surprised to see you trying to place the blame on Hamilton. The stewards got it right. Massa looked at his mirror three times by my count and then aimed for the apex anyway, despite there being at least half a car length overlap.
ReplyDelete-"What part of "Hamilton was never alongside enough to make the pass" is not getting through?"
How far alongside would he need to be? At one point his front wing was up to Massa's front tire. Even during braking he was never further back than the sidepod on the Ferrari. I'm guessing even if he was dead even with the Ferrari you'd say the pass wasn't completed so Massa had the right to turn in...
This is the first time I've posted a comment on here and will probably be the last as I think I'm going to stop bothering with this site. It's become ridiculous lately.
I agree with Zizzo who said: "In my opinion, when you're battling, in no case you are allowed to drive as you would if the other wasn't on track".
ReplyDeleteBut I would like to add that it is really really easy for us (TV viewers) to blame one or another driver. One simply needs more information/data/camera angles to make a decent judgement call, hence the Stuarts have access to additional data; and of-course many times they don't make the correct decision, and a lot of time we don't agree with their decisions. It very tough judging an incident like this.
Axis, I disagree with you here, but still love the Blog mate!
Not sure what you expected Lewis to do?
ReplyDeleteHe got a pretty good tow of Massa then pulled alongside him. They have both arrived at the corner, Lewis has tried to slow down and back out of the move, Massa has seen Lewis in his mirrors on the inside but braked late and turned in on Lewis.
AC, you remind me of nascar fans, "Damn, I hate that Jeff Jordon, his daddy bought him into Nascar and all he ever does is crash into my favorite driver, Dale junya." Like you, these fans show they have no understanding of racing, you both receive entertainment from fitting personality to the shiny cars that go around really fast. The facts that matter are, hamy got 3/4 beside Massa, on the inside for the following corner, before the braking zone. Once they got to the braking zone Massa braked later, so that Hamilton was only 1/5 (?) along side him. Massa then turned into the apex as if there wasn't a car there, if he braked late enough to clear hamster this would've been fine, but facial hair was still there and under control. Massa didn't have to give up, he could've maintained the outside line, but because there was a car beside him, he couldn't go to the apex without crashing into that car. AC, A dive bomb pass is when a car makes up ground on the brakes and is likely out of control, this is the opposite, the passing car was along side before the braking zone and lost some ground on the brakes, Massa was the driver closer to losing control. They hit because Massa pretended not to ackknowledge a car was passing him, why he did this? Thats up to you AC, just try to avoid using your knowledge about racing to convey your driver preferences, stick to what you know.
ReplyDeleteIt is racing incident BUT if some has has to be blame here in my view should me Massa.
ReplyDeleteHamilton is leaving the car because he already win the position but Massa close his line.
BTW I don't like Hamilton but on this one is not his fault.
PS: Go Grampa!
It's totally obvious Massa turned across the apex after checking his mirrors three times because he wanted to cause an incident. He was probably following orders from Alonso who's still gutted he got stuffed by Hamilton in his first year of F1. Glad the stewards who have far more information and experience than than AC and the other Hamilton trolls on here.
ReplyDeleteWell one thing's I can always count on are the Ham crew getting all fired up!
ReplyDeleteHe's the way it is boys: If a Formula 1 pass (a real one, not a BS DRS pass) is at best a 50/50 proposition, Hamilton's attempt there was at best a 20/80. How is it possible to lay the blame the guy who's on the receiving end of Ham's bad bet?
I will grant you Hamilton could not disappear but he Massa out braked him (actually, I'm not sure that was an especially big braking area probably more of a lift or a quick stab) But you certainly did not see Hamilton try to ride the curb more, any more than you saw Massa driving anything but the ideal line. It was two guys who wanted to be the first one one the other side of that turn. It's sometimes referred to as "racing".
But the penalty remains ridiculous, in no way was Hamilton remotely in a position to 100% own the corner.
Here is the question, why did Massa brake so late if he didnt saw the brit? Because he turned like he didnt.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, it was an avoidable incident by both drivers and an exesive penalty.
Excuse my english.
I think this is one of those cases where each drivers temper and way of driving its a bad cobination. Any two other drivers in this same situation would have managed the curve with no contact.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, when I saw Hamilton behind Massa and heading forward I instantly thought it's gonna be something. And you know - I was right, it was the 6th accident involving these two guys...
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree with AC and have to add Hamilton was not alongside at the X-moment, it was not more than 3/4 inside, more over Massa out braked him right before the apex, so he had a priority to stay inside... I am shocked they penalized Massa, but it doesn't make any difference anyway... Frankly speaking, Hamilton acts like a teenager more than in 2007...
Even more than the "go for a gap that exists" bit - because even Hamilton has to be smart enough to recognize that as a disingenuous attempt to cover up a deliberate hit on another driver - I think it was all the talk about Senna putting his car in places where the other driver would have to yield to him or be hit by him. And how, if they yielded, they'd remember forever that Senna owned them. I am positive Hamilton heard that and thought it was the omg most awesome thing ever!!! Pretty much every dumbass move I've seen him make this year, I've thought that can be the only thing going through his mind.
ReplyDeleteYEs last Anon...you get it. It is the point I made in the main post.
ReplyDeleteI get what you guys are saying about Senna and Hamilton has ran into just about everyone this year but this was not his fault. Is he supposed to just sit behind massa?
ReplyDeleteHe got in the slipstream, used some kers got along side. Felipe went deeper because he's on the outside (yes you can carry more speed with a wider approach). Hamilton was there, Massa had the option of giving him room or causing a collision.
What do you have to think that trying to pass in a corner combination (turns 5-6-7 are one combination in essence) that only has one racing line, that the other driver is going to give you room to drive alongside? Add to the equation, the guy you are trying to pass knows you and you know him, because you have collided one more than one occasion this season before. Furthermore, during practice runs just about everyone has run wide in that combination at one point, reinforcing that only one very tight racing line is available.
ReplyDeleteTrying to pass there would only work if 1) you are at least completely next to the guy (thus he must have made a mistake coming out of turn 4) or 2) the other guy is being lapped and breaks really early to allow you through.
These simple things seem to have been missed by a certain Hamilton. Sure, Massa turned in on him, but what options did he have (except for doing that what fans from Hamilton would like him to have done: no fight, just give up your position)? Also, keep in mind that these two were battling already for several laps and we have seen Hamilton make more unforced errors when he gets stressed out about not getting past someone within one lap.
IMHO it was just a racing incident between two frustrated drivers that can't get along to begin with. But, they have two more races to bring their contact-tally up to 8.
last anon: I would agree with you entirely if it weren't for the portion of the track where Hamilton made his move - turn 5 into 6/7. It's just a dumb place to try to overtake. Obviously he's allowed to try wherever he wants to on the track, but it was funny that my commentators (Brundle/DC) singled out that one area of track particularly maybe 4 or 5 times prior to Hamilton's attempt as a place where an overtake would never work. It was almost like Hamilton was listening in and had some kind of 8-yr-old OH YEAH?!?! PROVE IT!!! brainfade. There were plenty of places where Hamilton could have made that move stick. This just was never going to be one of them.
ReplyDeleteAC: sorry, didn't mean to restate your point for you :) I've just been thinking about that one particular part of the movie every time I watch Hamilton this year.
I've been saying for ages that Hamilton and Massa are very similar types of drivers. I think this season has proved that better than anything...
ReplyDeleteYou must be inhaling some tailpipe if you think this was Hamilton's fault. This is a great site but the blind Hamilton hate is tiring. Or you are just trolling. If that's the case, then its working ;)
ReplyDeleteI am a Ferrari fan but this time is Massa's fault, at least 60/40. It is clear that he made an avoidable and strange move versus Ham.
ReplyDeleteWow, lotta comments here. I think there are some F1 fans on this site. :)
ReplyDelete“After looking at it from different camera angles and studying all the data available to us, it was clear that Massa knew where Hamilton was before he chose to turn across him.”
ReplyDeleteHerbert said Massa’s decision to ‘open the door’ for Hamilton, before taking his normal racing line for the corner, also influenced their decision:
“Massa knew where Hamilton was, he opened the door for him by moving wide, and after doing that he still swept across and did not give Hamilton room.
“That’s why the decision was made to punish him with a drive-through penalty.”
Seemingly always late to jump in on this incredibly entertaining topic, I have a question for all the Hamilton defenders: Was Massa simply supposed to jump out of the way because Hamilton showed him his wheel?
ReplyDeleteLOL, I find the connection between Hamilton's approach and Martin Brundle's Top Gear analysis of Ayrton Senna spot on.
I have in my archives a clip of Niki Lauda (during his TAG/Porsche/McLaren days) suggesting on a demo video that the challenge behind overtaking is that one does not take his or herself, nor their competitor, off the track.
Given that Hamilton was attempting the overtaking in this instance . . . .
I've never reconciled the "Senna" theory as it seems the only manner in which one could combat the inevitable would be to accept retirement, risk injury, and let the accident happen every single time such that the aggressor might one day realize they were getting no where with that approach
The problem with Massa is that he doesn't understand "live to fight another day". He's a whiny bitch. Everyone called Nando a whiny bitch but look who's getting results out of discretion being the better part of valor. Massa turned in like there wasn't a car there. That's fact. I'm not a Lewis fan by any stretch, but trying to FORCE all the blame on Lewis smacks of hatred. "fanboy" this, "fanboy" that, you aren't making subjective opinions AC. You're letting your bias get the better of you. Whether or not Lewis was "far enough alonside" is irrelevant. Massa HAS NOT been getting the results he should, and wheelbanging with Lewis isn't winning him any favors inside Ferrari I'm sure. His job is to win races and championships for Ferrari. He's not doing that by crying to every camera and reporter he can find when he and Lewis get withing 50 feet of one another. Massa shouldn't have closed the door because he knew damn well he wasn't going to make it, otherwise he wouldn't have braked so late. It's been pointed out before, he looked at least three times to his inside, so he knew shit was going down and he still turned in on a car that wasn't going to disappear. Whether or not that's a passing zone is irrelevant as well. Many daring passes in F1 and racing worldwide happen in places everyone said it couldn't happen.
ReplyDeleteFact is Massa turned in on him. Full stop. Massa hit another car that was to his inside and he knew he was there. This feud needs to stop because Massa is doing piss poor against his teammate and rather than being in the "right" on track he needs to be finishing better and fulfilling his obligations to Ferrari. Which aren't getting in accidents every time Lewis comes along, in the right or wrong. Massa is a has been, and it's showing.
At this point they needed to punish both of them by suspending them for a whole GP. Enough with the drive throughs. It happens once, OK, racing incident. Twice, three times even.. But after the third you have to realize it's a pattern, and the most effective way to stifle this type of behavior is simply to suspend the drivers - both of them - for a whole race, piss off the team & sponsors, and make damn sure they're not going to do it again.
ReplyDeleteUhHuh:
ReplyDeleteJust throwing this out there; Maybe Massa IS fulfilling his obligation to Ferrari...
Let the conspiracies begin!
FYI here is Martin Brundle supporting EXACTLY what AC has said:
ReplyDelete"What is significant here is that Turn Five is a fifth-gear sweeping left-hander with limited braking, and hard enough to get right one at a time.
Massa was penalised for the subsequent contact because he was looking in his mirror and so was deemed to have seen the other car.
That is nonsense - at 180mph, you have to look in your mirror and make a split-second judgement call as to whether it is your corner or not depending on exactly where the other car is.
I wrote this column on the plane back from Delhi and around me were drivers and team principals, along with other people I respect, and nobody can understand the Massa drive-through penalty.
I stand by my instant call in the commentary box that it was a racing incident - as Hamilton himself described it.
Massa should have left more room but Hamilton should have eased out of the throttle - in that particular bend. There is no point in risking another front-wing change there unless you are fully alongside and have claimed the corner."
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI thought this was an excellent analysis from BBC website:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula_one/15524661.stm
"Six times now the two men have clashed this year: at Monaco in both practice and race, in Singapore qualifying and race, in Japan and now in India."
ReplyDeleteIf this is how we count, than they have collided 7 times this season. Don't forget the last corner in the British GP. Go Massa and Hamilton, you can make a grand total of 11 contact-incidents in 1 season (1 for practice and 1 for the race). Go for it. We trust in you.
...And here is another former F1 driver who is saying the same thing as AC:
ReplyDelete"However, Coulthard believes if anyone should have been punished for the incident it should have been the McLaren driver.
"I simply can't understand how Felipe could have been deemed the guilty party. As drivers we are always taught that the car behind is responsible so to my mind the stewards misinterpreted what happened," he wrote in his weekly Daily Telegraph column.
"I don't want to beat up on Lewis. Far from it.
"I supported him in similar circumstances after Sauber's Kamui Kobayashi clipped the back of him at Spa. And after everything that has gone on over the past weeks and months he deserves a break. But in this instance I feel he was definitely the guiltier party.
"If Lewis had got that far up alongside Felipe into a tight hairpin, where the braking zone is maybe 100 metres and lasts for a few seconds, then I think Massa would have been right to give way. But heading into a fourth gear left-hander at maybe 150-160km/h? Where the braking zone lasts for one second? I don't think Massa can be held responsible."
Coulthard feels that one thing that needs addressing is the inconsistency from stewards when it comes to dishing out penalties.
"This isn't really about Lewis and Felipe. It could have been any two drivers. What concerns me more is the inconsistency of stewarding decisions," he continued.
"Making these types of calls is one of the real difficulties with a complex sport like Formula One, but it was almost as if they felt that - with Lewis receiving so many decisions against him this year - they were trying to redress the balance. A bit like in football when a referee sends someone off in controversial circumstances and the crowd is on his back, he is more disposed to send a player from the opposition off.""
Let's take a step back ...
ReplyDeletein 2008 Hamilton won the World title in Brazil.
actually Massa was Champion for a couple of seconds. Lewis took it away from him. by the looks of things massa will never get as close to be WC as that couple of secs in septemper 2008. so maybe that is an additional sub-concious element that makes him go that much more agressive when lewis is involved.
cheers,
/abductee
@/abductee
ReplyDeleteLet's make a similar comparison for Hamilton. He was only able to beat Massa to cling a title, albeit with the smallest of margin imaginable. He failed ever since, despite deemed to be the next best thing after Senna. He is all frustrated sub-consciously. When ever he sees the rear of Massa's car he thinks he can do it again with just one corner left.
It was a racing accident between two frustrated drivers that are being beaten by their team-mates at the end of a season. Personally, I don't see Massa stay in F1 much longer and I don't see Hamilton stay at McLaren much longer. Time will tell, as always.
I actually think Massa was dumb. I actually think everyone decided to pick on Hamilton. I actually think Senna was great but was arrogant and not always correct. He wasn't much of a gentleman driver. If the greateness of a driver was measured by his track manners, Hamilton would be much better than Senna.
ReplyDeleteAnd here is Weber saying the same thing as AC. So now that's Brundle, Coulthard, and Weber all saying that Massa shouldn't have gotten a penalty and that is was a 50-50 incident.
ReplyDelete"You could argue all day about the rights and wrongs of the latest crash involving Lewis Hamilton and Felipe Massa but it was a 50-50 incident in my opinion.
The corner they collided at is quite a quick one - fifth gear at about 135mph - so the brakes don't go on much.
It's very difficult to pass there but Lewis got a good run off Turn Four and got down the inside of Felipe.
Continue reading the main story
If someone's had an absolute howler, then fine, give them a penalty but sometimes it might be better just to say it was one of those things
It was the age-old thing. Lewis went for it, Felipe was still going to commit to the corner, then Lewis tried to back off and couldn't.
F1 is getting into a bit of a road-car culture with penalties. The attitude seems to be that someone must be to blame when there is an incident.
In this case, the stewards thought Felipe could have given Lewis a bit more room and therefore handed him a drive-through penalty.
Yes, Felipe could have made space for Lewis but, in my view, it wasn't clear-cut.
The drivers have always said that they want the stewards to be consistent - and, to be fair, that's what they are trying to be.
If someone's had an absolute howler, then fine, give them a penalty but sometimes it might be better just to say it was one of those things - what we call in F1 "a racing incident" - and let it go."
Hello,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Zizzo who said: "In my opinion, when you're battling, in no case you are allowed to drive as you would if the other wasn't on track"..........