While nothing is official yet there are reports Pirelli has made the financially more appetizing proposal in their bid to be supplier of black sticky stuff after Bridgestone's departure. Michelin and Pirelli are said to have both proposed furnishing tires at a cost of 1.5 million euros per team but Pirelli is willing to buy advertising heavily at venues ( and presumably provide mechanics with free calendars!). An F1 contract means venues give up signage rights which then get sold with the revenue in part distributed among the teams. Michelin demanded to have free advertising space at races.
Both Pirelli and Michelin have insisted Formula 1 move to a tire which at least vaguely looks like a street tire and proposed using 18 inch wheels. This will radically alter the look of cars which now are limited to 13 inch wheels and tiny brake rotors.. But more than the look I imagine this will have a radical impact on the way cars suspensions are designed as now much of the compliance is provided by the tire and much as the springs. Maybe one of our more techie readers would like to illustrate the specifics of this proposal?
Whichever company and technical solution gets the go ahead, you would think this decision has to be made ASAP as design for next season's cars is around the corner and I would bet teams would rather keep the same fat donut type wheels until the next radical change in F1's formula in 2013.
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A move to 18's would be a very bad idea IMO as its to big of a technical and financial transition for the teams to make. The suspension, ride heights, areo package, brake packaging, spindles, arms, mounting points, everything would need to be redone. Plus they would now need to regulate the size of the brakes, and Im sure someone is going to find a loophole somewhere and exploit the system like the DD and F-Duct.
ReplyDeleteAre they really complaining about the "looks" of the tire not being marketable (as if a slick 12" wide is toootaly road relevant!)? Imagine how marketable a 1" sidewall is going to be for their logos!
I don't think the argument is about the looks, but rather about application to other cars. Other forms of motorsport, such as DTM (correct me if I'm wrong), already use 18s, as do many high-performance road cars. I'm assuming that since the F1 tires would be a similar size, any tech developed for them would be easier to translate into road tires or tires for other forms of racing (or vice-versa).
ReplyDeleteMoving to an 18 inch wheel is a complete joke. It goes completely against everything that F1 stands for, the ultimate performance series. Larger wheels serve no purpose other than for looks. All that a larger rim would do is increase the amount of unsprung weight in the cars thereby decreasing performance. Not to mention making one hell of a headache for the engineers.
ReplyDeleteDo the right thing Bernie, ban these fools.
I have to look up what the rolling circumference of a current F1 tire is but it's pretty big, the main issue is that hi has a huge sidewall since wheels are limited to 13". Having an 18" wheel would just reduce the size of the sidewall not necessarily make the tire taller. It might also be that with the materials used for wheels there might be LESS unsprung weight. But the real issues are aerodynamics, suspension design and brakes.
ReplyDeleteIm sure i read over on either James Allen or Joe Sawards blogs that the move to 18" would not be implemented right away so the teams would have more than enough time to understand what changes the car would need so dont worry peeps im sure the teams will have it covered!
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering if it could shake up the field a bit. Presumably the sidewalls would be much smaller so the actual car suspension would have to be beefed up?? Assuming FIA still limits testing by then it could be a few races in before teams get them best out of them
jrfalcone1,
ReplyDeleteAre you serious?
From your perspective using huge balloon wheels goes against everything F1 stands for from a ultimate performance standpoint. (one could argue that F1 is more about rules and regulations than technical innovations at this point- in which case your statement would be correct)
Big balloon tires are used because the rules force big balloon tires; if the powers at be removed this regulation, you would see large wheels and low profile tires for sure. Large wheels have a lot of benefits:
-Decreasing unspring weight (the tires weigh more than the wheels)
-Decreasing rotating and translating mass
-Larger brakes, better cooling
-easier packaging for uprights and upright pickup points
-better suspension geometry
-better tire dynamics- Stiffer sidewalls, moving suspension movement to suspension
This last point is pretty huge. Using tires as part of the suspension goes against modern racecar engineering in so many ways; it hurts me to think that people think big balloon tires are ideal from a performance standpoint. Race car engineers want to be able to absorb bumps and shock through the actual suspension- this way it can be controlled. Letting the tires do this works means you're at the mercy of tire dynamics. You want to make the cars SPRINGS be the springs, not a huge balloon tire.
Your point about a headache for engineers- especially if a tight budget is involved, is spot on.
jrfalcone1,
ReplyDeleteAre you serious?
From your perspective using huge balloon wheels goes against everything F1 stands for from a ultimate performance standpoint. (one could argue that F1 is more about rules and regulations than technical innovations at this point- in which case your statement would be correct)
Big balloon tires are used because the rules force big balloon tires; if the powers at be removed this regulation, you would see large wheels and low profile tires for sure. Large wheels have a lot of benefits:
-Decreasing unspring weight (the tires weigh more than the wheels)
-Decreasing rotating and translating mass
-Larger brakes, better cooling
-easier packaging for uprights and upright pickup points
-better suspension geometry
-better tire dynamics- Stiffer sidewalls, moving suspension movement to suspension
This last point is pretty huge. Using tires as part of the suspension goes against modern racecar engineering in so many ways; it hurts me to think that people think big balloon tires are ideal from a performance standpoint. Race car engineers want to be able to absorb bumps and shock through the actual suspension- this way it can be controlled. Letting the tires do this works means you're at the mercy of tire dynamics. You want to make the cars SPRINGS be the springs, not a huge balloon tire.
Your point about a headache for engineers- especially if a tight budget is involved, is spot on.
The other reason not to change is that its drastically going to change the driving characteristics and driving style needed to get speed out of the car. It would alienate F1 from the rest of open wheel racing as all of the feeder series also use balloon tires as well, somewhat making F1 a very different car then everything else out there.
ReplyDeleteIMO going to a super low profile tire simply changes to much of the formula of an open wheel car and its driving characteristics.
Personally, what makes F1 great to me is the fact they tackle such crazy engineering challenges and make such great technological advances.
ReplyDeleteI personally don't care either way, but it seems all the negative nannies here are trying to be apologetic for people not wanting to innovate or have change. Is wheel and tire size really that big of an issue in the grand scheme of things? Until 2-3 decades ago nobody thought using any sort of real aero kits was worth it.
Just like the drivers are supposed to be the best in the world -- making the most out of the highest of high performance machines on a track, I was under the impression the engineers were supposed to be held in the same regard -- making the most out of any set of rules and regulations with every material and bit of technology available to them. I'm sure they'd do just fine even if they made them use 22 inch rims with spinners. That's what they're paid to do, and why they're working in F1 and you're not.
The world economy is still in the shitter, if you want actual brand name companies to provide hundreds upon hundreds of tires (or any parts, for that matter) for F1 you're going to have to let them make some concessions as to making their investment as cost effective as possible.