September 8, 2008

One last thing about Spa...

Or friend St3ph3n was kind enough to send us this video. It's an onboard from just before the Hamilton's pass up until Raikkonen's crash. I think you can what the stewards picked up on but, as I'm sure it's not going to convince anyone who does not want to be convinced, I won't point it out.

What is without controversy and dispute is that this is an awesome piece of video so enjoy it. Thanks Steven!!

Forgive our slow server (send money for a fast one we promise not to spend it all on tires and brake pads!)

And here is the rest of it.


  1. It hasn't convinced Niki Lauda:

  2. Ah good old Lauda... Go back and read some of his previous bombshells for a sanity check or... read this article:

    ""Just think about it: If Lewis had stayed behind Kimi through the chicane, he would have passed him in front of the pits, because Lewis and the McLaren, at that time in the race in the wet, were so much quicker."

    Then look at the video to see Hamilton does not lift...

  3. AC, you say that Hamilton does not lift, but it seems pretty clear that he is not at full throttle. We saw that Hamilton straight-lined the chicane, and you are trying to say that Hamilton's McLaren is slower than a Ferrari that was coming out of a corner without Hamilton lifting?

  4. There's a good frame by frame analysis here:

  5. I'm as big a Ferrari fan as any, but I have to say that this penalty was total BS. Hamilton took the smart way out of being squeezed on exit, let Kimi by as per the rules, and then capitalized on Kimi's dumb move not to protect the inside line on entry to the La Source. Any racer will tell you that was ultimately Kimi's biggest f-up.

    It's really besides the point (since he let Kimi *fully* retake the position), but there's simply no way he was full throttle after short cutting the chicane. Maybe 90% throttle, but that 10% makes all the difference in giving Kimi the momentum to retake 1st place.

    This penalty is not just, and is not good for the sport. I was really bummed for Kimi when he crashed out, but this kind of insanely exciting racing should not be discouraged! F1 needs more battles like this!!!

  6. Well, if he was at less than full throttle then is shows even more how much of an advantage he gained. If he had, as the video show was possible, stayed on track (yes, he would have had to slow down significantly) he would never in million years have been in the same position.

    I'm wondering about Kimi's crash if he did any chance have some alignment issue with the rear left.
    (I'm speculating here...relax Hamsters) Take a look at the part of the video when Hamilton goes off and Kimi threads through the Williams. You see the Mclaren heading back towards the track then there is what may be a bump on the Ferrari. It may have been just an oversteer moment but I wonder if there was some contact there. Soon after Kimi spun twice both times turning left....and his left rear was flat after the crash though that could have just as easily have been contact with the wall.

    Just a thought.

  7. Thanks for posting the video AC.

    I think we can argue the point forever and a day but ultimately I'm sure we'd all be happier if races were won and lost at the flag.

    I remember MotoGP a few years back when Rossi passed under yellow by mistake. He was given a 30 second penalty for it, which he was told about, so he just went on and won by that distance!

    The williams incident that caused Hamilton and Kimi to take evasive action - has anything been investigated about that? It seemed to me to be some pretty dangerous driving in all honesty.

  8. Forget throttle position and that crap... it's not what the penalty is about.

    Lewis made a classic stupid divebomb and gained 2 advantages: a) flustered the unflappable Kimi, and b) he never fully "gave back" the position he gained by chopping the chicane. In fact, he still netted an advantage in terms of closure/distance.

    Stee and I debated this last night. There's no rule against flustering another driver, but I said to Stee, "Ham never gave back enough space."

    "How much is enough to give back?" you ask.

    Watch the vid again. My point is Lewis never paused. He stayed in full-attack mode and never symbolically paused to say, "Hey, I just cheated, here's a courtesy pause, I'm sorry."

    Instead he just kept the attack going without a pause, and gained access to Kimi's tailpipes in a totally illegit way. He cheated, he showed shit for brains, he was penalized, and he deserved it.

    Had he backed off even for a second, I don't think the stewards would have nailed him like they did.


  9. Hamilton supporters love to say that the races should be won at the track... and i agree.

    Tell that to Hamilton. Tell him to stay at the track (and not cut through it).

    If there would've been a gravel trap in that corner one of 2 things would have happened:

    1. Either he would not have had the audacity to try a BS outside move that he was obviously not going to make (Kimi had the line).

    2. It would have been game over for him right there.

    It awesome to see 2 fantastic drivers racing like they did... it just wasn't legal.

  10. Can someone at Axis please post the exact excerpt of the rule book we are all arguing over. There have been a lot of claims that the rule was violated, but I for one have never even seen the rule in writing. I would be it is safe to assume that I'm not in the minority on that.

  11. Well said Freep, that was the point of my "Fair Play" post.

  12. This comment has been removed by the author.

  13. Freep writes:
    "" Watch the vid again. My point is Lewis never paused. He stayed in full-attack mode and never symbolically paused to say, "Hey, I just cheated, here's a courtesy pause, I'm sorry."

    Instead he just kept the attack going without a pause, and gained access to Kimi's tailpipes in a totally illegit way. He cheated, he showed shit for brains, he was penalized, and he deserved it.

    Had he backed off even for a second, I don't think the stewards would have nailed him like they did.""

    Are you sure about this? The laws of physics inidicates you are wrong.

    Watching the videos here and from the speedtv feed, it is obvious that he did in fact lift and let kimi through.

    He must have lifted to let him through. Since Lewis had a shorter distance because he was in front, and Kimi passed him with a longer path to go, it is evident that Lewis did lift.

    Now onto the penalty:
    The term 'gain an advantage' is highly ambiguous and in every race I have seen in the last 11 years, it has simply meant giving back the position, which Lewis.

    It has always been a black and white issue where just letting the driver past was enough to offset the corner cutting event.

    When you start trying to make it a shade of gray issue where you must not only let the car pass you but then let them get 'x' meters ahead, that is going to be hard to judge.

    Gaining an advantage is just too vague. The length of time you must wait to re-attack has never been defined. Ever.

    If the FIA wants to clarify it going forward to further mean, you must let the car behind you pass and then also let them stay ahead until the next corner, that might be a way to fix this going forward.

    However as the precedent for the last 11 years I have been watching solely been that the drives yields his spot.

    Never has there been an 'amount' to give back.

    If Kimi had not been been a blocking mad man and simply held the line, Lewis would not have gotten back past him.

    Anyway, there are issues that created that were never addressed.

    He made multiple line changes when you are suppossed to be allowed only one.

    He drove into the back of Lewis.

    He passed under yellows (twice in one shot)

    The other thing is that they checked with Race Control twice to verify that the pass was legal. Why would Charlie Whiting approve the pass was legal if he had not throught it was?

    Finally awesome video - wish it kept going for the rest of that lap.


  14. Greg: I never said Ham failed to lift and let Kimi by. He lifted. But he sucked into Kimi's wake at a gap (what gap!?) which made it clear he gained a huge advantage by cheating the chicane.


  15. Greg, I think that as far as this sort of ruling, Whiting does not actually have authority.

    Man that opens another can of worms: do you have a fixed set of stewards for the whole season? I'm guessing all the world's federations would object and imagine having to choose them? yikes.

    Having rules 100% black and white will not work either, like all laws they will need to be interpreted.

    Certainly, in my book the trend towards more defined and strict TECHNICAL regulation has done nothing for the sport. You tell me why in the world do all engines have to be 90 degree v8? WHY?
    Just say it has to be 2.4L naturally aspirated, and let manufacturers come up with the best solution. Once you used to have cars each with their own sound among other things...

  16. What that video shows is that (IMHO) Hamilton did not get a tow slipstreaming Kimi after cutting the chicane, because he accelerates first next to him then Kimi goes back ahead and then Kimi does a sharp move to the left and Lewis does a smaller move to the right. All in all I don't think Lewis spent more than a couple of 10th of a second in Kimi's slipstream... Whatever advantage he gained from cutting the corner it certainly (IMHO) was not from slipstreaming Kimi.

  17. What that vid showed was that twice Hammo nearly rear ended Kimi because Kimis car was either so slow and crap in the wet or that he brake tested hammo twice.

  18. Or, Pablo, maybe Hamilton just braked too late? That would certainly explain his need to straightline a chicane that Kimi negotiated perfectly in the deteriorating conditions.


  19. Now you guys are just grasping at straws. Being a blind Hamilton basher is just as bad as being a shameless Hamilton apologist.

    Hamilton clearly slowed enough to make the first corner if Kimi had given him room. He had to take evasive action because of Kimi "taking back" his line which, while an aggressive move, is totally legit. I do the same thing quite often to maintain position in races. People don't like it, but it works and isn't strictly illegal.

    Hamilton also clearly out-braked Kimi by a huge margin going into La Source, when Kimi neglected to protect the inside of the corner. That was Kimi's bad, a mistake that possibly cost him the race. Most importantly, it had nothing to do with the chicane incident.

    Hamilton was fully behind Kimi. Kimi was going 6kph+ faster at that point. That's a lot faster. Those are the facts. As far as I'm concerned, that means Hammy kept up his end of the bargain to the letter of the rules. Kimi then got outbraked and outraced. I feel bad for the guy 'cause that was his mistake, but Hammy shouldn't be penalized because Kimi left the door wide open for him.

    As for what eventually left Kimi's car to get totaled, it certainly could have been an alignment issue. More likely is that it was just snap oversteer upon power application on a dirty part of a wet track. First time I drove a shifter kart, I was blown away at how brutal something with that power to weight ratio can be and how quickly it'll bite you if you're not careful on that throttle. That experience was in the dry, and a shifter is nothing close to what an F1 car must be like especially on dry tires in rainy conditions!!! Such a bummer for Kimi that it happened, even with his insanely amazing car control skills. Hope the merits of his otherwise brilliant drive aren't forgotten by the team...

  20. I'm not sure why recently, any criticism of Mr. Hamilton is equated to "bashing".

    In the past we usually pointed out things Hamilton himself said or did, was remarking he looked silly hanging from a wire pretending to be Apollo "bashing" or like in this case, getting to the heart of the matter?

    Jarno Trulli, who should know, agrees with us that Hamilton would never have been in the position to attack at LeSource if he had chosen to stay on the track.

  21. K Dog:
    Ham's car was faster. His only deficiency was one of patience.

    To All:
    We're not "bashing" anyone. If our conclusion that Ham deserved a penalty for immature impatience strikes you as too-cold, perhaps being an F1 fanatic is not for you.


  22. This is just starting to get fun:

  23. Thanks to all your responses. I love this blogspot.

    I watched the end of the race again tonight just because it was that awesome. Certainly race of this year because of the drama at the end. Makes me wish they would just throw water on the track randomly each race :)

    Anyway back to the point at hand and what I saw.

    I saw that Lewis was in Kimi's zip wind for about .01 seconds, maybe even 0 because kimi was doing mad turning left and right to keep lewis behind him.

    So the point's made by the kimi crew that lewis did not lift and that lewis gained an advantage by being in the tow of kimis car are both flat false. Kimi just took a terrible line.

    Go watch the reply again, there was no tow. He let him by. He was able to pass due to kimi's mistake and not from a tow.

    The problem was that kimi threw his car all around and just gave up the superior inside line.

    Now, onto the rules of 'competive advantage' since this is ambiguous and since in the 11 years of watching it has simply meant giving up your position, you cannot change this intpertation to suit the red cars over the silver cars. It is just flatly unfair and unjust.

    The point of
    "Jarno Trulli, who should know, agrees with us that Hamilton would never have been in the position to attack at LeSource if he had chosen to stay on the track."

    May certainly be true.
    This is not what the rules state.

    Frankly it is a big mess because there is no concrete definition of what an advantage gained means and how long you have to wait to attack again.

    Either way, based on precedents and the many other rules violations that went unpunished this ruling should be reversed post haste so we can get on with it.


  24. Nice post Greg, regardless of where I may stand on the issue.


  25. Haha. Naw, making fun of Hammy for doing and saying idiotic things - which he's done plenty of - certainly isn't "bashing." It's just funny :)

    As an aside, I'm personally conflicted about the guy. He's had moments of absolute brilliance, but also plenty of moments of stupidity and sheer recklessness. Guess that's why he's so intriguing...

    Thanks for the awesome blog - it's great to have a place to watch/read a bunch of cool stuff and have discussions about the subject matter at the same time!

  26. All you have to see in that video is how quickly the McLaren caught up to the Ferrari. Hamilton was quicker and probably would have passed him one way or another.

    Even aside from that...if the rules say give back the position then there should be no penalty.


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